Abnormal Behavior! Video

[Leachy666]

So this is Archimedes. He about 3 year old. On Nov 9th I came home to him sleeping next to his log. So I knowing that he like to sleep on top, I pick him up. When I pick him up I notice that he got startled when I did. Thinking that I scared him when I woke him up from his deep sleep.So I started petting him to calm him down. But when I was trying to calm him down he started to bob his head in complete cycles? He was also throwing his arms up and down like if he was trying to calm. That's when I noticed there was something wrong. Thinking maybe he had impaction. So i gave him a warm bath. When I did so he started bobing his head in cycles and seem like he was trying to find balance? He also went to the bathroom in the water but only the white feces came out? He also wasnt showing any sign of impaction either. Then he want limp or fall into a sleep?...I thought he was dying but then he woke up and started bobing his head in cycle and looking at me. Like if he had no control over what he was doing.
I linked some video on his behavior when I would pick him up.

http://vid40.photobucket.com/albums/e214/Leachy666/bearded%20dragkn/VID_20141112_121454_177_zpsgf8xvqgy.mp4
http://vid40.photobucket.com/albums/e214/Leachy666/bearded%20dragkn/VID_20141112_121816_269_zps9l5phvid.mp4

So I took him to the Vet....Doctor had no answer why he was behaving like this? the Doctor thought I might have dropped him, because of cases he had see before of reptiles being drop or object being dropped on him. Other then his behavior he said he seem healthy... Doctor wanted to get a Blood test....

So far I've been waiting 4 day for them to come in...They first told me it takes 24hr..No call...and they told me that the doctor has not been in since my last visit...Nor is there another reptile Doctor that can tell me about the blood work!?! But they told me that he will be in tomorrow...I hope....But if not, then I have no choice but to go to another Vet... But I have no job nor the money to do so. My boyfriend has be lending me money but im not sure how much im going to need for future testing if needed...I've been doing a http://www.Gofundme.com/Archimedes Funding to help me with his vet bills. But Im afraid that the money wont be enough or fast enough to get the care he needs...So I'm hoping that someone might be able to help me here on this Forum. Im wondering if this is the first time anyone has seen this type of behavior?

As of right now. Ive been bathing him in warm water, Syringe feeding him and just trying to keep him as comfortable as possible till i get a better answer from his Blood work...Not much has change from the video beside being less active and not really opening his eyes anymore. Also one thing that doesnt show in the video is that he would sometimes walk but in a cycle? But he hasn't really been active for the past 2 days. He mostly sleeps or keep his head up...

If you have any question let me know and ill try to answer them.

 

[AHBD]

Hi there....I'm really sorry about what's happening to Archimedes. It does seem to be almost certainly a neurological problem, but may be something else. When the vet gets the blood test results, get the paperwork and post it on here. One of the mods named Tracie [ user name Drache613 ] can decipher blood tests pretty well. I doubt that this would be caused by impaction....has he eaten anything unusually large ? And you say that he would walk in circles before.....how long had he been doing that ? One more thing, can you list the exact type + brand of lights you're using as well as any supplements ? Even if you no longer have the boxes that the lights came in there should be some writing on the bulbs themselves. Hopefully you can get his problem figured out + possibly get him back to health.

 

[Leachy666]

Hi there....I'm really sorry about what's happening to Archimedes. It does seem to be almost certainly a neurological problem, but may be something else. When the vet gets the blood test results, get the paperwork and post it on here. One of the mods named Tracie [ user name Drache613 ] can decipher blood tests pretty well. I doubt that this would be caused by impaction....has he eaten anything unusually large ? And you say that he would walk in circles before.....how long had he been doing that ? One more thing, can you list the exact type + brand of lights you're using as well as any supplements ? Even if you no longer have the boxes that the lights came in there should be some writing on the bulbs themselves. Hopefully you can get his problem figured out + possibly get him back to health.

Yes the doctor said it some kind of Neurological problem but doesn't know the cause if it. He wasn't dropped or anything. This started on Monday and I took him to the vet the next day. I've been waiting for the blood test since then...I'll post the blood work when I get it for sure.
He hasn't eaten anything big. He never walked around in cycle before. It only started when I found him on Monday when I let him walked on the floor. I know that for a fact because I took him a bath the day before and he was fine. I just got new lights today because the weather is getting colder. My room never gets too cold. I got a both Exo Terra bulbs. UVB 150 and infrared basking spot 75w. My old basking light was 25w.

Supplement Ive been using right now that The doctor gave me to feed him with a syringe. Its a Oxbow brand called Carnivore care. Other supplements I give him is Nature Zone Bites for Beardies Soft food, Exo terra Soft pellets and Zoo Med Reptile Calcium without D3. The soft pellet are usually in his cage in case he get hungry when i'm gone and the Soft bites I usually give him when I give him his greens. These are some new thing that I wanted him to try. But the Calcium I usually mix in his Meal worms and greens. I hope that helps...I do want him to get better but I also dont want to see him suffer either...

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I couldn't view the videos for some reason.
Which Exoterra bulbs do you have? What type of calcium do you give him regularly, the powder without D3? How often do you give that to him?
Just looking at the pictures, it appears he has a slight underbite or is it just the angle of the picture?
I will be happy to review the blood tests for you when you get them back.

Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

 

[Leachy666]

Hello,

I couldn't view the videos for some reason.
Which Exoterra bulbs do you have? What type of calcium do you give him regularly, the powder without D3? How often do you give that to him?
Just looking at the pictures, it appears he has a slight underbite or is it just the angle of the picture?
I will be happy to review the blood tests for you when you get them back.

Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

Not sure why you can't view the video? but anyway Here are the bulb and food i give him on a daily bases. I usually add calcium with his veggies and sometime with his mealworms. The Pellets and bites I add with this veggies. Been trying to make him try new foods. But I leave the pellets there when i go out.

He does have a underbite. He had that since I could remember. Even giving him more calcium didnt fix his underbite. Some owner told me that he might have gotten it from rubbing his chin on the tank too much. But he never had any other problems beside what going on with him right now.

I still havent gotten the blood work! It been almost a week....And he's not getting any better...He's not eating as much either...Im worried he may not make it another night...

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

The Exoterra compact coil light for UVB unfortunately isn't a good one though. The UVB wavelength isn't the correct wavelength & isn't conducive for D3 synthesis. He probably isn't absorbing his calcium very well. Which UVB light did you have previously?
Does he eat all of his greens & mealworms with the calcium on them? If not, then he may not be getting enough calcium.
I agree, persistent rubbing on a tank could cause snout damage & possible thickening of the scales on the lower area of the jaw.
Is he losing weight or maintaining his weight still?
Did this start around the time you got the compact coil light? You are using a bright white basking light, correct & not a colored one?

Tracie

 

[Leachy666]

Hello,

The Exoterra compact coil light for UVB unfortunately isn't a good one though. The UVB wavelength isn't the correct wavelength & isn't conducive for D3 synthesis. He probably isn't absorbing his calcium very well. Which UVB light did you have previously?
Does he eat all of his greens & mealworms with the calcium on them? If not, then he may not be getting enough calcium.
I agree, persistent rubbing on a tank could cause snout damage & possible thickening of the scales on the lower area of the jaw.
Is he losing weight or maintaining his weight still?
Did this start around the time you got the compact coil light? You are using a bright white basking light, correct & not a colored one?

Tracie

The only bulb i change watt was the basking light. Like the one in the pic but of a lower watt because My room has no vents. so my room can get hot in the summer time and when I leave the door close.
I would always change the bulb too. Pet store told me that should change them out every 4-5 month. I used the same brand and watts.

He would eat a lot of greens and worms with calcium. But there time when he wouldn't eat. I started bathing him more since he wasn't pooping enough in his cage. He alway seem to poop better in warm water. This would go off and on at times.

Yes he does have a big scale on his chin and He alway stayed the same weight to me. Only time he gain a lot of weight was when i gave him to many goalith worms. So I cut down on his worm for a while because I didn't want him to gain too much weight. Other then that he's been the same size.

I've been using the same brand since I've had him for 3 year. I've used the red basking light too.

Update:

Went to the vet tonight because I finally got my blood work after waiting for about a week from them. Very angry at the vet for not calling me, giving me the run around when I asked if my blood work came in and was told it might take a day...Next day no call....called again the next day and was told they were in but the hemp doctor wasn't in for that day and there was no one else that could explain to me what was on the blood work and was told to wait tomorrow for our call....no call next day I call early..say the doctor was in but was with a patients and they would call me bk.....6pm I get a call from the doctor. Finally!!!.... but not good news... I forgot to get a copy of the blood work when I rushed him to the vet asap when the doctor called me. They gave him fluids, calcuim and anticipated for his infection. Said if he doesn't improve by tomorrow then be should be out down because he having a hard time breathing or keep treating him but it a 50/50 change of getting better...she said he might have been sick for a long time without showing any signs and his light wasn't giving him enough uvb even when he ate all this calcium and that it wasn't enough....After reading your repy and talking to the doctor it make since that the Bulb was the problem....the bulb was going bad and i didn't know that those had to be charge every 2-3 month after the doctor told me... that my guess after getting all this new information...

So after getting his shot the doctor didn't charge me and apologise about the wait for blood work and that I should bring him back tomorrw to see if he improve or to stop treatment and put him to see .... She also want me to take to a manager about the BS I went to have someone accounted....not sure what that would be. Would be nice to have a refund of the money I spent on blood work that didn't get here in Time!?!? He could have been treated sooner!! ... He could of had a better chance of surviving...

 

[AHBD]

I'm sorry that you [ and your dragon ] are going through this ! Poor guy.....I don't know if you might change his bulb and see if some extra calcium will help him. If they just gave him a shot it would need a little more time to work. It's up to you what to do...I don't think he's suffering when he's at rest, and his struggling when you pick him up doesn't seem to be too bad at the moment to cause extreme suffering. Let yourself think about what you want to do. Try to get extra calcium in him and get a good bulb . If by chance it's warm where you live take him in the sun . Whenever you pick him up be slow , gentle + support his body so he doesn't flail. By the way, the underbite is 100 % definitely MBD related [ many dragons live with that, it's not a huge problem ], definitely not from rubbing his jaw. If you Google " bearded dragon underbite" you'll see lots of pics just like him.

 

[Leachy666]

I'm sorry that you [ and your dragon ] are going through this ! Poor guy.....I don't know if you might change his bulb and see if some extra calcium will help him. If they just gave him a shot it would need a little more time to work. It's up to you what to do...I don't think he's suffering when he's at rest, and his struggling when you pick him up doesn't seem to be too bad at the moment to cause extreme suffering. Let yourself think about what you want to do. Try to get extra calcium in him and get a good bulb . If by chance it's warm where you live take him in the sun . Whenever you pick him up be slow , gentle + support his body so he doesn't flail. By the way, the underbite is 100 % definitely MBD related [ many dragons live with that, it's not a huge problem ], definitely not from rubbing his jaw. If you Google " bearded dragon underbite" you'll see lots of pics just like him.

Its really hard to make a decision....So far I've had no sleep...He hasn't been sticking his head up which is good. But he still has a heavy breathing at times but mostly he's asleep. I've been taking him out in the sun but its also been cloudy here. I will try to get him a new light set. I dont have a job or money.... my bf has been lending me money and ive been taking in donations to help with his vet bill. So far I only need $64 to cover his first bill...but still need to come up with more money to keep treating him if he get better but if he doesn't....I dunno... I really don't want to let him go...its a hard decisions.... that why I came onto the forum to see if other beardie have recover from this? I know money is the issue but I've gotten alot help from donation so far in one bill....I'll find a way to get money....But is it wrong of me to try to save him?

 

[AHBD]

I really feel for you....I know you don't want him to suffer. If his problems are calcium related it seems reasonable to try , as long as he's not suffering greatly , to see if he can improve. I'm not sure what treatments the vet has in mind since he already said that he would recommend euthenazaition. If you feel comfortable trying to get daily calcium in him and just get a good UVB bulb on him for a while that might be an option [ and not too expensive ] if the vet sees no other treatment plan. You might just treat him at home, nothing aggressive, just supplements + UVB, and see how he goes from there. There's nothing wrong with trying to see if he has a chance as long as he's not suffering and in agony. And even on a cloudy day there is quite a bit of UVB outdoors , as long as it's not too cool out.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I am sorry that you had to wait so long for the blood test results. It is very frustrating!
Did you get a copy of the results, also? I can take a look at them just to review them if you would like.
I agree. If he doesn't seem to be suffering, I think getting a better UVB & some liquid calcium would greatly help him out. It does take time though for the physical changes to occur if he does have very low calcium or an infection.
Which shot did he give him, an antibiotic shot?
I think it's worth a shot. Many dragons have way surpassed the amount of time a vet said that they would last & then some. It is very difficult to make a decision to put them down, especially if there is something else that can be done & they are not suffering right now.

Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

 

[Leachy666]

Hello,

I am sorry that you had to wait so long for the blood test results. It is very frustrating!
Did you get a copy of the results, also? I can take a look at them just to review them if you would like.
I agree. If he doesn't seem to be suffering, I think getting a better UVB & some liquid calcium would greatly help him out. It does take time though for the physical changes to occur if he does have very low calcium or an infection.
Which shot did he give him, an antibiotic shot?
I think it's worth a shot. Many dragons have way surpassed the amount of time a vet said that they would last & then some. It is very difficult to make a decision to put them down, especially if there is something else that can be done & they are not suffering right now.

Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

Update: Vet manager call me. Told me the reason why the blood work took so long. one .. the hostiptal didn't put down what type of lizard he was...two... Nor did the place Call the vet fast enough to find out the species. ..three...either the Hostiptal or doctor wasn't keeping up with there blood work patients...

So...after explaining to the manager what happened she was able to refund me half of his blood work and also help with any medicine or treatments he might need. Depending what he needs there just to find d out. There not fully paying everything but there doing the best they could...
im going back to the vet today. Since the hospital is welling to help me out (they better...) with his treatment or help in anyway the could for him...So hopefully I'll have a better answer. I'll get the blood work today and invoice in what there treating him with...*sigh* What a horror experience this has been....

 

[Leachy666]

I really feel for you....I know you don't want him to suffer. If his problems are calcium related it seems reasonable to try , as long as he's not suffering greatly , to see if he can improve. I'm not sure what treatments the vet has in mind since he already said that he would recommend euthenazaition. If you feel comfortable trying to get daily calcium in him and just get a good UVB bulb on him for a while that might be an option [ and not too expensive ] if the vet sees no other treatment plan. You might just treat him at home, nothing aggressive, just supplements + UVB, and see how he goes from there. There's nothing wrong with trying to see if he has a chance as long as he's not suffering and in agony. And even on a cloudy day there is quite a bit of UVB outdoors , as long as it's not too cool out.

Thanks. I'm going ahead and giving him more treatment after the hospital is welling to help in cost (read past reply on forum) I'm going to do my best to help him. But if treatment isnt working then i know what has to be done...keep everyone updated when i can.

 

[Leachy666]

Update!!
Blood work

And what there treating him with. Not sure if you can read the writing from the report

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How is he doing today?
I see that they gave him some vitamin shots & a Fortaz injection?
Is he still going to be receiving the Fortaz for now, an oral or injection treatment?
The uric acid (kidney readings) levels are ok, maybe a slight bit elevated but not bad. That could just be a little bit of dehydration.
The monocytes were high which is a white blood cell count. It can indicate chronic disease, or chronic immune system issues.
The SGOT/AST (liver readings) are elevated quite a bit. Did they mention that to you at all?
I recommend getting either some milk thistle or serrapeptase to treat the liver. How many insects do you give him weekly, on average?
The calcium wasn't really out of range, just a little on the low end. That can easily be improved through a better UVB light to help with calcium absorption. The phosphorus could come down just a little also, which can bind or hinder calcium absorption, also.

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie