Panacur Treatment

[Savora]

So, after a very liquidy diahrrea-like poop, I scheduled a vet appt for Cactus, fearing she had parasites. The vet could only see me two days later, and I wish I had tried to save a sample of the liquidy poop--Cactus didn't poop again when the vet appt came up. (SO annoying--of course she pooped as soon as I brought her home!)

The vet tried to do a swab inside her vent, but didn't see any unusual parasites on the swab. She still prescribed me Panacur, 0.25 once today, and then another 0.25 in two weeks. Cactus weighed in at 524 grams at the vet (but I wouldn't be surprised if she just pooped out 20 grams).

My main question is, what side effects should I expect, and will Panacur hurt her if she doesn't have parasites? I'd like to know these for sure before I actually administer the Panacur to her. On that topic, any tips to administering the liquid? Or should I just..try to probe the needleless syringe into the side of her mouth?

Thank you so much, to anybody who can help.

 

[CooperDragon]

They seem to know not to cooperate when you need a fresh sample the most... Oh well. Panacur is pretty mild on their systems compared to other meds so it shouldn't cause much of an issue. It is pretty effective against pinworms. Hopefully it helps in this case. I would just try to drip a little on her nose and see if she'll lick it. If not you could try to gently wedge the syringe above her jaw but don't be too forceful. It's better to be patient and try offering it by letting her lick it up if she'll have it.

 

[EllenD]

The only negative side effect you may see is a lack of appetite, as antiparasitic meds can be tough on their stomachs. I always give my beardies and my parrots doses of probiotics daily when they're taking any oral meds. So I'd suggest getting either a reptile specific probiotic or just some Soy Yogurt, most Walmarts and grocery stores have Silk brand Soy Yogurt. Since it's just an antiparasitic the probiotics won't interfere with the meds (they can interfere with antibiotics), so I'd drip some of the Soy Yogurt on her snout before giving her the Panacur, then give her a daily dose throughout the treatment. Should keep her tummy okay.

The main issue is be concerned about is that often beardies don't have pinworms but rather a high count of Coccidia, which would be treated with an Antiprotozoan medication rather than Panacur. It could also be a different parasite, there's no way to know without doing a fecal, so you could give her the Panacur unnecessarily, then have to give her a second medication, and that could really be harsh on her, they don't do well with multiple doses of medications. So if I were you I would drop a fresh fecal sample off at your vet to be tested to make sure that Panacur is what she needs so that she's not taking unnecessary meds, which happens a lot and often causes long-term problems, like a lack of appetite and lethargy for an extended period of time. Better to get the correct med in her the first time...

 

[Savora]

Thank you for the advice and replies
I had administered the Panacur two days ago, after reading that it wasn't hard on them; I decided it wouldn't hurt to try it, and 0.25 ml seemed like a pretty small dose anyways.

She pooped today, plain liquid diahrrea. No blood in the poop, no particularly funky or odd smell, just the regular poop funk. I'm going to stop the Panacur, since I believe it hasn't helped her at all.

Her appetite is staying consistent; though she's been eating less ever since her soft stools started. She still goes crazy for her Phoenix worms, but she's eating half the amount of salad she used to. Her energy levels are about the same.

The next time she poops, I'll take it in for a fecal. Will the vet be able to do a fecal if the poop was straight diahrrea, with a very runny consistency? Can I just place the paper towel she soiled (she's on a paper towel substrate at the moment) into a Ziplock bag for them to test? I don't really know if a solid poop sample is required for a fecal.

I've given her a big of soy yogurt yesterday and today, and I'm considering buying Acidipholiz (if my spelling is correct). I'm fearing that it's coccidia, and I've read that the most common medication for coccidia (Albon) is really harsh on them. Hopefully the entirety of the Panacur dose I gave her will be totally through her system before I give her meds like that.

I've been cleaning her entire viv with a super diluted ammonia cleaner, in case it is coccidia.

Again, thank you guys.

 

[kyleena29]

I would take in whatever sample you can get and see what they can do with it. If you find it is coccidia this is a better alternative than Albon.
http://www.beardeddragon.co/index.php?route=product/product&path=60&product_id=246

 

[Savora]

I would take in whatever sample you can get and see what they can do with it. If you find it is coccidia this is a better alternative than Albon.
http://www.beardeddragon.co/index.php?route=product/product&path=60&product_id=246

Thank you so much! I've read more about this medication since your suggestion, and find that this is easier on their system than Albon. I'll definitely try this stuff out instead of Albon if they do find coccidia.

 

[EllenD]

Yes, they can typically do a fecal on anything you give them, they certainly don't need "solid" fecal matter, whether it's did or liquid it's still fecal matter. They can run a gram stain on anything, they may not be able to do a float test on it if it has no solids, but just take what she gives you and they should have no problem doing a gram stain and microscopy to diagnose coccidia, worms, etc.

Do not let them give her Albon, not only is it harsh, it doesn't always work! In fact, most beardies given Albon end up also taking multiple other drugs...Also, I highly recommend not giving her Flagyl if you can get away with it. Flagyl is effective, but it's one of the harshest drugs they can prescribe. If it's necessary then so be it, Flagyl is an effective drug, but it does cause their gastrointestinal systems to become upset. The most effective drug for coccidia I've seen is Toltrazuril, it works fast and is very effective at getting the coccidia counts down the first time through. Also, if they say her coccidia "load" or "count" is in the LOW level, then it's likely not the cause of the runny diarrhea, but rather a different parasite or worm, as most beardies always have a low level of coccidia, and this typically isn't treated...And yes, please, regardless of what med she's given, please continue with a daily dose of probiotics, I'd keep doing it now since probiotics can help to normalize the diarrhea anyway. Acidophilus is wonderful as long as it's "dairy free" or "lactose free"...

 

[EllenD]

Out of curiosity, what is your beardie's normal daily diet, including calcium and multivitamin supplements (I'm talking what her normal, daily diet was before and when the diarrhea started)? She may very well have a moderate or high count of Coccidia, which if in the moderate to high range can cause diarrhea (again, a low coccidia count will not cause constant and extremely runny, watery stools), and if her coccidia count is in the moderate to high range then giving her the Toltrazuril is a must, but some beardies have digestive issues unrelated to infections. I've seen bearded dragons who suddenly started to have very watery diarrhea and continued to have it, even after taking multiple Antiprotozoan, Antibiotic, and antiparasitic meds. They may have a low coccidia count or no coccidia count, and the fecal tests show no signs of other bacteria, parasites, or worms. Their diets haven't changed at all either, they just suddenly have extremely watery diarrhea every day, and that's the only sign or symptom that there's a problem. And in these cases, the common cure is putting them on a regular, daily dose of a probiotic that also contains a digestive enzyme complex. I always keep some of this on hand in tablet form (my pug had these digestive issues and he was on 1 tablet a day for the last 6 years of his life, he never had diarrhea or vomiting ever again after starting this regimen). I also use to use the Digestive Enzyme and Probiotic Formula when I bred parrots, when a baby I was hand-feeding developed a slow crop, crop stasis, or a yeast infection in their crop.

I'm only mentioning this because it seems your beardie has had the very watery diarrhea for some time now, and if the fecal tests show nothing but a low coccidia count, you may want to consider putting her on the daily probiotic and digestive enzyme complex once a day. For now, definitely keep giving her the Soy Yogurt (get the acidophilus ASAP, it's better) daily, and hopefully the fecal shows something simple like a very high coccidia count that can be treated quickly with the Toltrazuril. But if she still has issues after all of this, remember this because it's definitely worth trying if nothing else helps...

 

[Savora]

Thank you so much for the help and replies, Ellen. You're very knowledgeable on beardie parasite stuff and I appreciate your concern for Cactus

So, about a month ago I switched from crickets to Phoenix worms exclusively, and I read online that Phoenix worms don't have to be dusted with calcium, so I stopped the calcium dusting since I made the switch. They are dusted with a multivitamin once a week. Her regular salads are collard greens, small amounts of carrots, and squash (butternut or spaghetti). I'd say her soft stools started two weeks ago (they've only gotten progressively wetter, though, so the first time she had her first diahrrea was Aug 30), and around that time I stopped the squash hoping that it would make her poops firmer, but it didn't help so I've been including squash in her salad again.

Oh, also I let her try two pieces of banana for the first time a few days ago. She really liked it.

So you're saying that sometimes beardies experience diahrrea simply because their gut flora is out of whack and they need a probiotic? I'll place an order today for a reptile probiotic from bug-de-lite.com. I'm hoping she poops today (she usually poops once every 1-2 days) so I can finally get some answers to this diahrrea. Poor thing has been in a totally empty tank for the past few days, on a paper towel substrate and a food bowl in the cool corner. It does make me feel better that she still seems alert and happy, like nothing is wrong at all.

 

[Savora]

She pooped today. More solid on this one--I can also see one small piece of undigested collard green. Gonna go get this fresh fecal tested. I'll let you know what the results are.

 

[EllenD]

That stool is quite loose, so a fecal is definitely in order. The problem a lot of people run into is their vet is not a reptile vet and is not familiar with what is "normal" for a beardie. So they see a low count of Coccidia and prescribe a harsh Antiprotozoan medication for it, when the low coccidia count is normal and is not what is causing the diarrhea. Usually beardies don't need a probiotic unless they've taken a medication, as yours did, which can mess up their normal gastrointestinal flora. So yes, probiotics are definitely a help not only for replenishing normal flora and getting things back on track, but also for setting their tummies when on a medication, which can negatively effect their appetites.

When their stool is constantly watery like that and the Panacur doesn't help, chances are they have either a high coccidia count and need an Antiprotozoan medication, or they have a different parasite or worm that the Panacur doesn't help. Either way I'd keep giving her the probiotics throughout her diarrhea or until she finishes whatever medication she is prescribed after having a fecal done.

 

[Savora]

I'm getting a little impatient. I brought the fecal sample in on Sept. 4, and the front desk person said that they'll probably call me tomorrow with the results.
After two days, I called asking for an update. They did not have any results yet.
Today, on day four, I called again. No updates.
Will the parasites still even be visible after waiting for so long?
This is terribly annoying, as I'm worried about Cactus and can't even start treatment with her until I get confirmation that it's coccidia in her system.
This vet is the only reptile vet in my town.

 

[CooperDragon]

That's odd. I wonder if the sample slipped through the cracks. Even the stuff my vet has to send out usually returns a result within a day or two. I'd imagine the eggs would still be visible after some time though. Seeing flagellates requires a very fresh sample but I don't think that's the case for coccidia.

 

[Savora]

I'm a little confused.

I woke up this morning to this sight:

She had messed her paper towels all up and pooped directly on the glass floor, however her poop looks solid and healthy and her urate looks liquidy.

Yesterday she didn't eat, though this morning I notice she's eaten some of her salad that I left in her viv as well as all of the Phoenix worms I left wriggling in her salad.

This is probably a dumb question, because parasites are usually really difficult to eradicate, but is it possible for a beardie to fight a parasite (such as coccidia) on their own if their viv is kept sterilized so that they don't continue re-infecting themselves? I've been cleaning her viv religiously with an ammonia cleaner after every poop.

Thank you so much, to those who have helped me through this...it's my first beardie and first round with parasites so I imagine I'm pretty annoying :lol:

Also, CooperDragon, would it be terribly rude of me to bring in another fecal sample and politely ask for them to examine the new one for parasites? Man, I just really want to start the appropriate meds for her.

 

[CooperDragon]

She was probably trying to dig or was moving her legs which moved the towels. Yes with proper care they can manage parasites on their own to an extent. That's why a lot of vets opt not to treat them if the count is minor. If you get some good fresh samples it won't hurt to have them checked by the vet. The more data the better in my opinion.